Talk:Jew
Judaism in Trek I have made some changes to conform to Judaism as seen in Trek. Speculation about what Hitler was doing is not appropriate, and I personally find it a particularly offensive leap since Judaism is not explicity referenced in the show. The origin of the Vulcan greeting is interesting and relevant; the religion of writers is not. Many stories are drawn from prior myths and fables, but their sole attribution to a religion is not appropriate and cannot be wholly correct as many people worked on each episode. Aholland 14:00, 10 March 2006 (UTC) :I can't vouch for the Background information, since that comes straight from what was on the Human religion page. I extremely apologize for adding the information, as I did not realize the offensiveness of it. Would it be alright including in the background, since it was a hidden reference to Judaism?--Tim Thomason 14:07, 10 March 2006 (UTC) Just so you know, I fully believe that no harm or insult to anyone was intended. But I still don't think, without something more from the show, that we should explicitly make a connection on the stuff to Judiasm. Had the producers wanted to make the connection it would have been a very easy thing to do; they didn't and their reasons, motivations, and intent are unknowable from the show itself. The point is we shouldn't make it explicit either (again, unless some kind of resource pops up that links it.) As to the other background information, I don't think it was appropriate on the Human religion page either. I really think that linking the religion (or lack thereof) of a writer (or producer, or editor, or SFX artist, or etc.) to creative choices is not what this site is about. We chronicle the information, not philosophize about why some particular story was chosen or rejected. So I'd still leave it out. Aholland 14:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC) :::The origin of the Vulcan greeting is interesting and relevant; the religion of writers is not. ::I wasn't aware you spoke for all of us, Aholland. ;) Seriously, I personally have interest and can see the relevance of writers' religion, as long as A.) it centers on the religion at hand, and B.) it's in the background information, where things like this are supposed to go. --From Andoria with Love 14:25, 10 March 2006 (UTC) :The background fact wasn't about the writer (Shimon Wincelberg)'s ethnicity; it was about the fact that he used his origin and roots in his "creative choice" for the episode ( ). I find it interesting that he referenced Jewish parables, as is noted on the episode page.--Tim Thomason 14:38, 10 March 2006 (UTC) Well, if there is one thing I've learned it is that no one speaks for everyone at this site. If you feel strongly about it, a statement similar to the one on the page ("He incorporated several references to Jewish parables into the screenplay") should be okay (speaking solely for myself, of course!). I just don't want to go down the road of categorizing people by ethnicity or religion and then trying to divine how that influenced their creative choices on the show. Aholland 14:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC) :::Ah, I get what you're saying. Sorry if a came off sounding like a douche, by the way. It's late, I'm tired, and I really shouldn't be awake right now. ;) --From Andoria with Love 15:00, 10 March 2006 (UTC) ::(re:Tim Thomason) I think is important to remember that Jewishhness is not just a religion, it is also an ethnicity, and Wincelberg, in citing the story of the sage standing on one foot (which, BTW, is from the Talmud, Pirkei Avot, and was said by Rabbi Hillel 2000 years ago) was using a specifically Jewish idiom. This same idiom get picked up in several novels and is used in fan fiction, etc. So I think it is very relevant to know where it originally came from, same as the Jewish origin of the Vulcan salute -- which Nimoy created using HIS Jewish background. Vulcan613 14:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC) Persecution I'm rather uncomfortable with the recent addition of "For thousands of years the Jews were persecuted on Earth" etc. It doesn't seem necessary to understand the sole reference to Jews in Trek: the joke in . It also is not mentioned in Trek, regardless of what has actually happened in the real world. The addition of Germany and trying to tie it into a lack of persecution in the Trek universe could justify similar statements in articles on any group who has - at one time or another in history - been persecuted by someone somewhere. So that doesn't seem appropriate either. Unless there is something I'm missing from context, and unless this information is specified somewhere in Trek itself, I propose the addition be deleted. Aholland 04:20, 1 April 2006 (UTC) :I'm editing the following out for the above reasons: "For thousands of years the Jews were persecuted on Earth. This was epitimized during World War II when Nazi Germany murdered millions of Jews because the Nazi's believed them to be an inferior race. By the early 22nd century prejudice and racism no longer existed on Earth. (VOY: "The Killing Game"), (Star Trek: First Contact)". Aholland 02:26, 4 April 2006 (UTC) Voyager "The Killing Game" mentions the nazi persecution of the Jews in the second world war. Jaz talk | novels 04:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC) ::Although that is a citation missed by everyone else so far (good job!), the actual dialogue is: "The Commandant speaks of civilization. The ancient Romans were civilized. The Jews are civilized. But in all its moral decay, Rome fell to the spears of our ancestors . . . as the Jews are falling now. Look at our destiny. The field of red. The purity of German blood. The blazing white circle of the sun that sanctified that blood. No one can deny us, no power on Earth or beyond . . . not the Christian savior, not the God of the Jews." Unless I've missed something else, that text does not support a broad statement of "persecution". So we could reasonably add, I think: "In 2374 a holographic Nazi SS Officer in a holoprogram run by the Hirogen on the remarked that Jews would fall defeated before peoples of German ancestry." We could also add a note at the beginning that the Jews worshiped a god. But more than that is beyond what is in the episode. Let me know if I've missed something, though. Aholland 04:34, 4 April 2006 (UTC) :There is more to the episode than the script. If you listen to the malice in his tone you can understand why I felt the persecution note was prudent. Jaz talk | novels 04:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC) ::The difficulty I have is not with historical facts of Nazi atrocities, but that Memory Alpha is not a full encyclopedia of history. It is just Trek. Making factual "in-universe" statements based on someone's tone of voice alone is not appropriate to the goal of making sure we do not engage in speculations of what "might" have been said or meant; we just report what was seen and heard, we don't embellish it. So, for instance, there is absolutlely nothing in Trek itself - even given a vitriolic tone of voice - to justify making these claims: ::*That Jews were persecuted on Earth over thousands of years. There is no claim made of persecution; there is no timeframe given. ::*That Nazi Germany murdered millions of Jews during World War II. The statement is simply not provided in Trek. (Keep in mind, it doesn't make it less true - it just means it never worked its way into a Trek script.) ::*That the Nazis believed that Jews were an inferior race. At most we can say that the character (who, remember, is complaining that his fellow officers don't "get it") believed that Jews were like Romans: civilized but capable of being conquered by the Germans. ::Although I would support a background note for context to the effect that the SS Officer's comments were most likely intended to refer to the Nazi policy of extermination of Jews during WWII, stating it as part of the body of the article is simply not justified by what was seen and heard in the episode itself. Unless there is more than a tone of voice, I believe we need to modify the article accordingly. Aholland 14:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC) Joke Text Tim Thomason kindly transcribed the joke in "Okona" earlier under Human religion's discussion page as follows: :There’s a Jewish guy, there was a Greek guy and there was an Irish guy. They die, they go to heaven, right. And they’re up there at St. Peter’s gate and they don’t wanna die, they wanna hang out on Earth, so they go to St. Peter: “Pete, gimme one more chance on Earth over there, on Earth and if you just give me one more chance on Earth, we won’t do anything bad.” St. Peter says: “One nasty thing, if you guys do one nasty thing - poof, you’re gone, poof you’re gone, one nasty thought and you’re gone.” So St. Peter sends the Greek guy, the Jewish guy and the Irish guy down to Earth. As they are walking, they are walking down the street, there’s a bar. The Irish guy plans to go into the bar - poof, he disappears just like that. Well, a twenty dollar bill goes rolling down the hill right, right in front of the guys... This does not imply that the "Jewish guy" in the joke is cheap. Was there more to the joke in the episode? If not, the recently added comment needs to remove the speculation about the punch line, while keeping the bits about a joke being told. I see no reason to speculate about sterotypical insults that didn't actually take place. Aholland 11:33, 24 April 2006 (UTC) :I don't know about you guys but I'm dying to find out how the joke ends. Oh yeah, have you heard the one about the Ferengi in the monkey suit? Federation 01:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC) List of Jews seen/ref'd in Trek Do we really need this list? I can understand the biblical ones referenced, that's fine by me, but to have a list of "real world" Jews seen? So, let's go add that same kind of list everywhere else shall we? "List of real world gay/lesbians", "List of Negroes" (to use the article name we have on here), "List of females", etc. I don't see a need for this list. Jaz noted in his edit "actually, I ran through the list of 19th, 20th, and 21st century humans and these are the only ones that stood out (and I'm pretty good with contemporary Jewish history)". I ask... what makes them stand out? What about the ones we're slighting? This is the same as the "Klingon women" category again. -- Sulfur 11:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC) :Really Sulfur, its not an article in it own right, its just a tiny background note that adds perspective to the article. You said what about the ones we leave out? I don't see the problem with giving examples. What's the problem here? --- Jaz 12:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC) :Also, I think I've listed them all now. I don't 5 qualifies as "tons". --- Jaz 12:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC) I'm certain that you've not listed them all. There will be a ton more. And I wasn't suggesting having those others as articles in their own right. Merely as background information too. I think that we should make sure to list all of the notable Xtians too. Never mind the Chinese and Indians. Seriously. That'll make us very complete. Won't it? -- Sulfur 12:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC) ::We can not justify doing this with only one article, we either add lists like this to all human categorizations or remove. :If you feel you would like to list all Indian or Chinese characters, go right ahead. --- Jaz 18:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC) No... my point was... that's a silly listing to have. -- Sulfur 18:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC) :I stand by my edits, and I think they bring perspective and an interesting background note. However, if you really feel that inclusion on the page will be detrimental to the wiki, I will not engage in any kind of edit warring. --- Jaz 19:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC) ::: In universe articles should have in universe lists, not real world lists...this is mixing oil and water. Actors should be viewed in a single group "as actors", not as "Jewish actors", "African American actors", etc., unless it actually has something to do with Star Trek, like Nimoy creating the Vulcan salute or perhaps something with Uhura or Whoopy and how race influenced their roles/characters. --65.112.81.158 19:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC) Just FYI, the list wasn't of Jewish actors, it was of in-universe characters who are Jewish. --- Jaz 19:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC) ::I agree that the list of characters who are Jewish is not appropriate, first because their religion was not mentioned in Star Trek,(Einstein never talked about his religion on the show) and second because Humans in Star Trek do not point out their religious differences with regards to each other, so we shouldn't either.--31dot 21:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC) ::::Gr... I had typed out quite a large response but I lost it when I had to authorise my web use at uni. ::::Anyway, I believe that a list of Jews mentioned in ST is not a good idea. I say this not because "Oh no we'd have to do more work", but more on principle. If we start breaking down humanity by religion, race and ethnicity, there is a very real possibility of offense being taken. This would be the case even if we were "fair" by doing the same on all pages. ::::Building on 31dots statement, I think that if a person was mentioned as Jewish, that should be mentioned in the main text of the article. But otherwise I'd advise caution in this area.– Cleanse 03:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC) :::::I think the "if we do X, we'll have to do Y" argument is a good point - but let's look at this from another angle. For every bit of data that is added to this encyclopedia (or any encyclopedia, for that matter), we might want to ask ourselves: "Does this information make the encyclopedia better?" and "If this information needs to be included, is this the best way to include it?" :::::Generally speaking, a bullet point list as part of a bigger article is, more often than not, not a good way to add information. This is not an absolute, of course, but an argument against such lists is that they just invite more list items and other lists - someone stumbling across this list might know another "real-life-person turned Star Trek character jew" and just add it to the bottom, eventually making the list the overwhelming (and most boring) part of the article. A second argument is the fact that lists, at least for me, always look as if they either are complete already, or at least are meant to be. If you're not going for a complete list but just want to give examples, then don't make it a list in the first place! Instead, make it a text paragraph that is interesting to read and eventually even gives some context. :::::Specifically speaking about this article and this list, there's also the question of whether this article even is the right place for it. Although the two concepts are strongly related, "being a follower of the religion Judaism" and "being a Jew" are not necessarily one and the same (see Wikipedia:Jew). This article (and, by extension, this whole Star Trek wiki) might not be the best places to try answering this real world question, at least in the guise of a definite list. -- Cid Highwind 10:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC) Okay, rather than a list, I'm going to change it to an anecdotal example; I think we can agree that falls withing the realm of suitable background information. --- Jaz 16:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC) :::::: Suitable "background information" should be 'further information about the subject, originating from official but non-canon materials'. I don't see how compiling a list of "jewish people" describes or defines a single thing described as 'further information' about the religion. --Alan 17:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC) Well, if you want to talk canon, the reference in The Outrageous Okona and in The Killing Game, both refer to Jewish people, not Jewish religion. --- Jaz 18:16, 16 April 2008 (UTC) :::::: Well, that's a discussion for another time. --Alan 18:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC) OK, so let me add my two cents. Jewishness is BOTH a religion and an ethnicity, and it is often difficult to separate the two, same as it is difficult to separate Native American ethnicity from Native American spirituality. Thinking of "religion" as something separate from one's culture is a Western construct that does not always fit other cultures. Having said that, I see nothing wrong with citing in-universe references to historical Jews such as Isaac Asimov and Albert Einstein where it is well-known they were Jewish. Not only does this add interest, it also counters the common complaint that "there are no Jews on Star Trek." Vulcan613 15:08, 28 May 2009 (UTC) :This was kind of over a year ago, but that's okay... I'm all for moving the article from "Judaism" to "Jewish people" because basically all the references are to people, not belief. There's one sort-of half reference to belief in VOY: "The Killing Game", but it mostly refers to people, not religion, and the Data reference is pretty explicitly referring to Jewish people, not Jewish religion. Also, in Background info, where it (probably correctly) infers that Maury Ginsberg was meant to be Jewish, there's no evidence of any religious belief, but a pretty strong case for him being of Jewish decent. Obviously this is a hard call because the lines between religion, nationality, and ethnicity are really blurred, but I think moving the article to "Jews" or "Jewish people" is probably a more accurate representation of what was actually mentioned in canon. --- Jaz 17:54, 28 May 2009 (UTC) ::In pre-emption of responses, let me just say, I'm not in favour of making this change to all earth religion pages. Christianity for example, aside from not having the same ethno-national group that Judaism has (on account of it being a proselytizing religion) has been explicitly referenced in a religious context - we have mentions of religious holidays like lent and chritsmas, religious infrastructure (chapels and monestaries), religious leaders (monks, ministers, priests) et cetera. The same could be said about Buddhism, Hinduism, Klingon religion, and Bajoran religion. --- Jaz 18:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)